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Post by jwiggin on Jan 19, 2009 16:03:18 GMT
Was in the market for a new small caliber rifle for shooting distance and for predators, the distance is just for recreation but I would also like to predator hunt. My question is this is a 17hmr suitable for coyotes or should I go bigger 22-250,223 in that range.
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Post by omega47 on Jan 19, 2009 17:09:04 GMT
22-250 is too big a rifle for out here. The cartridge is prone to fouling bores and we just don't have the distances out here to justify its use. The .223 is a much better cartridge to use with any of the varmint type bullets (Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, etc). I'm a big fan of the Barnes Varmint Grenade bullets because they are frangibles. If you hit the yote, you get a little hole in and no exit hole. If you miss the bullet will self destruct if it hits anything solid. It won't riccochet off rocks or trees and it won't penetrate the walls of a building.
I've been loading .243 with the Barnes Varmint Grenade for some other forum members because that is also a terrific combo for coyotes. It drops them instantly and there is no fur damage. Other .243 bullets are also good but they can cause a lot of fur damage with the exit wounds.
IMO, anything smaller than .223 is not smart to use on yotes. There was a story in a past Hawkeye about a professional coyote hunter in Maine who says he pulls all sorts of bullets out of coyotes kills that hat hit the animals but didn't kill them and the wounds heal around the bullet. Unless you are confident enough to hit a yote at the base of the skull with your .22LR, .22 Hornet or .17HMR, etc, go with the .223 or .243.
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Post by browning204 on Jan 19, 2009 17:50:38 GMT
.17 HMR is to small. Look at the .204. It is like the 22/250 ballisticly but does not foul barrels.
The speed and accuracy is far better than the .223.
39 grain blitzkings out of the .204 are wicked!
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Post by regnar on Jan 20, 2009 5:40:42 GMT
Ok, its been a while since we had a good debate so here it goes. After a lot of research I have come to the conclusion that the people who dont like the 17 for coyotes either have never shot one with it or they dont like to track. TAlso for the people who say that they shot one and it was a PERFECT shot but it still ran off, well my bet is the shot was not so perfect. IF it was the coyote would be dead. A .17 will kill a coyote if it is shot in the correct place, that being the head or the vitals. They WILL die. Yes they might run and you might have to track them but they will still die. Is the the .223 or 22-250 a better round? I guess so but does not mean that people cant use something else. That would be like saying that people shooting a recurve should switch to a compound because it is more deadly. Yes I can shoot a compound more accurately and more consistently than a recurve and shoot it further but that does not mean that someone should stop shooting a recurve. I have seen and heard loots of people who made "Perfect" shots on animals with rifles but the animal still ran off never to be found. What does that mean? Are there some deer and coyotes out there that have ballistic plates embedded into their vitals or is it that there are people who need a lot more practice. I see a lot of people on video making shoots on coyotes at bad angles with poor shot placement. Can you get away with it if you have a larger caliber weapon? Yes. But with the 17 you have to wait for the correct shot to present it self. I guess you could say that hunting with the 17hmr is like bow hunting. You have in your hands a weapon that can easily kill the game you are after but in order to do so you must be patient and wait for the correct shot. And like the difference between bow hunting deer and rifle hunting them, it means that it is more difficult be successful. I guess you could say that I believe that the .17hmr is adequate gun for coyote and that a .223 is over gunned ;D Looking forward to some spirited debate
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Post by omega47 on Jan 20, 2009 20:15:01 GMT
Disagree completely on the .17HMR. I don't want to spend my time tracking a dead dog. The .223 and .243 with Barnes VG bullets have proven themselves all over the country. Drop a dog instantly with little or no fur damage. I load these for some guys in VT who drop 2-3 dogs every weekend and they swear by the .243 VG load.
As I said instantly, the .17HMR is a good round if you can accurately place your shot at the base of the dog's skull. So is the .22LR, but if you can't, don't use it. Every hunt I've ever been on, there is no way I could get a base of skull shot. The dogs are just too active and here in New England, there is so much cover, you don't often have a clear shot for more than a fraction of a second.
Honestly, the best gun to use around here is probably a 12 guage with #4 shot.
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Post by omega47 on Jan 20, 2009 20:17:44 GMT
.17 HMR is to small. Look at the .204. It is like the 22/250 ballisticly but does not foul barrels. The speed and accuracy is far better than the .223. 39 grain blitzkings out of the .204 are wicked! Hey Browning - good to see you again. I'll put your .204 against my .223 any day of the week. If you can match sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards, sub 1" at 200 and sub 1.5" at 3" then I'll buy into your claim, but otherwise there is no way I'll concede the .204 is more accurate than a .223. Maybe a little hotter out of the barrel, but with my .223 and my Sierra hand loads, last time I was out I put 10 shots in a 1/2" circle at 100 yards. Not sure you could ever get even close to that with a .204
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Post by omega47 on Jan 20, 2009 20:19:04 GMT
And BTW - If I had to chose a small caliber round under .223 for any type of hunting, my choice would be the .204 with the new Barnes VG bullets for .204. I still wouldn't go with any rimfire cartridge.
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Post by regnar on Jan 20, 2009 22:18:07 GMT
Omega,
Just so you know, this is friendly banter so dont take anything I say as a personnel attack.
No thats out of the way, Yes a head shot will work but I dont believe it has to be in the back of the head. In the ear would be easier and offer more shot options. Second a shot through the boiler room suing the vmax will still kill them dead.
What you said about not wanting to track a dog but wanting them dead right there is what I dont understand about serious coyote hunters. to me, dead is dead. If I have to track them that is just practice for me. I dont expect a deer to drop in its tracks when I shoot one but that is because I shoot a deer with the gun like I would with the bow. I aim for the vitals and wont shoot unless I have a clear shot at them.
As far as coyotes being to active to kill with the 17, I disagree. If I can kill one with the bow than thats plenty of time with a gun.
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Post by regnar on Jan 20, 2009 22:25:25 GMT
Omega,
As far as one caliber being more accurate than another, well we should start a different thread on that ;D
except for the most elite bechrest shooter in the world, I would sat that two thing influence accuracy more so that the caliber of the round. First is the rifle itself. With out a rifle that has the ability to put out consistently, you can have the most accurate wildcat cartridge in the world and it wont matter. Second is the shooter. Since most people can not shoot as well as their rifle is capable of than the caliber is of no concern.
I will say that sub moa out to 300yards is exceptional shooting but would contend that it has more to do with you and your rifle than it does with the round.
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Post by nastygunz on Jan 21, 2009 0:47:44 GMT
Tracking a dog?...in the snow?....THE HELL YOU SAY?! Omega, Just so you know, this is friendly banter so dont take anything I say as a personnel attack. No thats out of the way, Yes a head shot will work but I dont believe it has to be in the back of the head. In the ear would be easier and offer more shot options. Second a shot through the boiler room suing the vmax will still kill them dead. What you said about not wanting to track a dog but wanting them dead right there is what I dont understand about serious coyote hunters. to me, dead is dead. If I have to track them that is just practice for me. I dont expect a deer to drop in its tracks when I shoot one but that is because I shoot a deer with the gun like I would with the bow. I aim for the vitals and wont shoot unless I have a clear shot at them. As far as coyotes being to active to kill with the 17, I disagree. If I can kill one with the bow than thats plenty of time with a gun.
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Post by MK-M-GOBL on Jan 21, 2009 15:01:34 GMT
Everyone has their favorites thinking that their caliber a God send to the hunting world. They also believe that there's no other caliber that's better then the one they have chosen. The fact is they all could get the job done but with some big "ifs".
Like if the shooter behind the gun is a good shot and I don't mean at the range either. Paper target shooting is a lot different then shooting at live target in the field or if the gun / equipment their using is sighted in and is well taken care of. I've only missed 1 coyote that shot at over the years. Was it the gun or calibers fault? No, it was me rushing and making a poor shot. Should I slam the 22 Hornet round and say it's slow and not worthy of coyotes? No again, it has it's range and I was taking it past it.
Some like play the to blame game to make up for bad hunting or shooting skills on the gun or caliber when what they really need to do evaluate at their own skills.
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Post by b4rifle on Jan 23, 2009 14:09:24 GMT
I have shot a 22-250 for a number of years, never fouled a barrel. Of course it is a hunting rifle and not a range gun. If you are shooting hundreds of rounds in an hour or two, yes you wear on a barrel. So will a 223. I have burned out barrels in 223 and 308. It takes a lot of ammo and range time. Average life span of a 308 barrel, roughly 10,000 rounds. few people shoot that much. Even if a 22-250 barrel had half the life span, few will shoot that in any amount if time. Especially hunting coyotes in the northeast.
Rim fires are capable of taking coyotes just the same as center-fires. The only time it becomes an issue, ethical or ballistics, is when you exceed the limitations of your particular cartridge. It is what you are familiar with and how you use it that makes the difference.
If you ask me, the best coyote rifle is the one in your hands when there is a dog standing in front of you.
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Post by browning204 on Jan 23, 2009 22:43:07 GMT
.17 HMR is to small. Look at the .204. It is like the 22/250 ballisticly but does not foul barrels. The speed and accuracy is far better than the .223. 39 grain blitzkings out of the .204 are wicked! Hey Browning - good to see you again. I'll put your .204 against my .223 any day of the week. If you can match sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards, sub 1" at 200 and sub 1.5" at 3" then I'll buy into your claim, but otherwise there is no way I'll concede the .204 is more accurate than a .223. Maybe a little hotter out of the barrel, but with my .223 and my Sierra hand loads, last time I was out I put 10 shots in a 1/2" circle at 100 yards. Not sure you could ever get even close to that with a .204 Sounds like a challenge Mark! I don't want you to "buy" into anything. Sounds like we should do a friendly wager when we both have time.
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Post by omega47 on Jan 25, 2009 5:05:24 GMT
Regnar - I love a good debate or discussion. No offense taken at all.
My point was if you talk to COs and read some of the writings of "professional" dog hunters, they frequently tell of dogs they've killed with .22 and smaller bullets in their bodies from old gunshot wounds. Sure you could do it with a .17. Hell, people brag about doing it with air guns. I just don't think it's practical.
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Post by omega47 on Jan 25, 2009 5:06:25 GMT
Hey Browning - good to see you again. I'll put your .204 against my .223 any day of the week. If you can match sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards, sub 1" at 200 and sub 1.5" at 3" then I'll buy into your claim, but otherwise there is no way I'll concede the .204 is more accurate than a .223. Maybe a little hotter out of the barrel, but with my .223 and my Sierra hand loads, last time I was out I put 10 shots in a 1/2" circle at 100 yards. Not sure you could ever get even close to that with a .204 Sounds like a challenge Mark! I don't want you to "buy" into anything. Sounds like we should do a friendly wager when we both have time. Got to find some way to drag you out of your house..... You've become too domesticated ;D
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