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Post by robinvt on Nov 7, 2006 2:38:41 GMT
As most of you have read, I just got back from an elk hunt in Colorado. I took a cow elk at a distance of 30 yards or so. I estimated that she weighed in the 400lb neighborhood.
I shoot a Winchester Model 70 in a .30-06. I was shooting a 180 grain Federal Fusion. This particular Fusion load sucks as the core and jacket totally seperated, but that's for another thread. What amazed me is that at such a close distance, the elk never reacted to the shot. My two friends said the same thing when they shot their elk (using a .30-06 and a .308)
So here is my question for all you ballistic guru's. I was thinking of stepping up to a 300 Win Mag for next year (yes, we are going again). Maybe picking up a 300 barrel for my Encore. I was looking at some ballistics on the Federal Vital-Shok loads. The high end .30-06 rounds (180gr using the Barnes Triple Shock X-Bullet) seem to perform as well as the 300 Win Mag load (velocity, energy, drift, trajectory). Of course the 300 has the edge especially when you get out to 400 yards, but I wondered if all it would take is stepping up to some premium ammo.
What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks, Rob
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Post by soccerref on Nov 7, 2006 14:37:43 GMT
I don't much knowledge of ballistics, but, I have done alot of talking with people who outfit for elk. The outfit we go to is a husband/wife, son/wife combo ownership. The wife of the owner hunts elk, and so does her grandaughter, they use a 7mm-mag and/or a .270. For deer, BIG deer, they use a .243. They take animals every year.
I think its more about the bullet than the calibre. Quality bullet made for the velocity and the size of the game means the world. Again, not saying I know enough to say if your choice was good/bad, but a .30-08 or any .30 calibre rifle, with a good bullet matched to the animal is more than enough for an elk.
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Post by regnar on Nov 7, 2006 23:09:40 GMT
Soccereff is correct. The proper bullet is much more important than than a slightly more powerfull rifle. In northern NH, alot of guys I know are shooting the 7mm 08 for deer and they heave big deer up there.
In northern ontario were my wife is from, the most popular rifle cartridge for moose is a 270. My father in law droped a monster 900#er last year with on shot.
What I would reccomend you do is go to a bunch of different manufactures web sites and read up on the different types of loads and their balistics. When you find the ones that will suit your needs buy a box of evey type you can (yes its expensive but neccessary). THen go to the range and find out which type your rifle likes the best. You will be suprised how much accuraccy is efected bya different type of bullet. When you find a load that works, I would go out and by as much ammo you can afford from that lot number. By doing this you have elimated any varaibles when you sight and when you check your zero every year.
Good luck
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Post by robinvt on Nov 8, 2006 0:27:00 GMT
Well, you guys have confirmed what I was thinking. I have always said and am a firm believer in shot placement. To have a well constructed bullet with a well placed shot will do the trick every time. I am still surprised of no reaction from the elk while taking an odd-six in the shoulder. Tough animal.
Thanks, Rob
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Post by b4rifle on Nov 8, 2006 2:14:26 GMT
Good info guys! The biggest baddest cartridge you can find does no good if you do not put it where it needs to go. All you need is a rifle you are comfortable with and good ammo that the rifle likes. Rob, I think you know that your 30-06 will do everything that you need it to. But if you needed an excuse to buy a new rifle I think this will work!!
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Post by regnar on Nov 8, 2006 2:40:43 GMT
b4rifle,
Never thought of that one!!!! I am telling the wife that that the old 30/30 just does not cut the mustard any more. I have t/c pro hunter sooner than later!!!!
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Post by whitetail71165 on Nov 10, 2006 1:16:43 GMT
If you move up to a 200gr.bullet i guarantee he'll react. The 30-06 is the best all-around rifle out there and is fine for elk. If you load your own ammo you have much more of a choice in rounds. Even up to a 220gr bullet.
But, like you said, if your going to need a long distance shot you may want to bulk up alittle on the caliber.
Two keys to dropping your quarry. solid built round and shot placement.
Nice job on the elk by the way.
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Post by regnar on Nov 10, 2006 2:35:31 GMT
Whitetail,
I agree but I would change the order, shot placement is numer 1. The bigest fastest bullet not put in the right place wont do its job.
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Post by whitetail71165 on Nov 10, 2006 13:12:26 GMT
Another way to look at it is if it's an inferior bullet shot placement isn't going to matter but i agree with you.
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Post by nickpk on Jan 13, 2007 0:57:26 GMT
If you don't hit bone and only take out lungs they may not react at all . But it is dead The 165-180 gr is more than you need for elk or moose . Most people are over guned ! The elk is dead!!!
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Post by bucks4me2 on Apr 14, 2007 21:57:28 GMT
I have a Marlen 444 that I came into and have not used. what would this be good for, Moose? I have relatives in Oregon and may sometime get a chance to elk hunt. I sure this is a hard hitter but I would think it is not a flat shooter.
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Post by okanagan on Apr 27, 2007 3:13:46 GMT
Am joining this converstaion very late, just happened to be browsing by.
The first poster's experience of seeing an elk take a mortal hit with no visible reaction is not unusual. Some react, some don't if they are not hit in the brain or spine. I've personally seen elk show no reaction when hit by 165 and 180 grain bullets of three brands: Sierra, Nosler Partition and Swift A-frame. Have also seen an elk not react to 200 grain Nosler Partition from a 300 Win mag (hit through the heart). Last Fall a friend hit one twice in the ribs with a Nosler Partition in 338 Win mag (don't know the bullet weight). The bull showed no indication of a hit and in the rain on a steep brushy mountainside, after finding no sign the hunter decided that he missed. My son listened to his story, knew the man was a good shot, so went back to look the next day and found the bull lying dead in the first cover he made it to.
All this to say we always go check carefully for blood or hair no matter if it looked like a clean miss or not. Elk are a bit of an odd animal that way. I count elk, grizzly, mountain goats and coyotes to be tenacious of life, that keep functioning longer with mortal wounds than most animals. Deer, black bears, moose, sheep and cougars tend to be less tenacious, though the moose is a special case and will brace his feet to keep from falling. He may last awhile but an elk hit in the same place would use his equivalent last breaths to run into the next canyon.
I know some folks count elk as merely a bigger deer, no different but for size. My experience has put me in the camp that they are tougher, pound for pound, though hardly invincible. Good bullet, well placed, will prevail.
Like the first poster, I killed several elk with a bullet that kept shedding its jacket and stopping penetraton virtually at that point, however little it had penetrated. I went to Nosler Partitions and in recent years to Swift A-frames. For me, on elk, I'll not use anything but bonded bullets as long as I have a choice.
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Post by okanagan on May 4, 2007 15:07:50 GMT
Bucks4me2, your 444 Marlin will do for elk but as you indicated, it limits your range a lot. If it is what you have to use, I'd hunt elk or moose with it without a qualm. It's a better elk killer than Lewis & Clark had or bowhunters use.
If you see an elk 250 yards or more across an Oregon clearcut however, you are badly handicapped compared to having most any of the .270 and up class of rifles. A 30-06 for example works just fine up close or easily out to 300 yards if you can hit with it, and you may get either shot at an elk. I once bent down to glass two square inches of elk hair I could see through a hole about 30 feet from me in thick tangled forest. That elk beat me and when I followed its tracks in the snow within another 50 feet I came to a rim where I could see a whole herd of elk over 500 yards across a canyon. Close range and long range within a few minutes of hunting. I don't like to shoot even 300 yards so got closer before shooting, but it was still too far for a 444.
I've bow hunted elk but with a rifle, I'd rather have a more versatile range, though I killed my first one with a 30-30 carbine. That elk was about 4 inches from the muzzle, and my farthest one was over 650 yards, a wounded bull getting away from a partner or I would not have shot that far. The 444 would handle the 4 inch range for sure! Hope you get to hunt elk.
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